The future of Macc trials

[eiger]

There has been some discussion recently about the severity of sections at Macc trials and whether or not one or more of the three routes (easy, clubman and expert) are becoming too hard.
As one of the plotters I'd be grateful of your comments (constructive please) looking at the scores I think its fair to say the hard route figures have been pretty consistent for a while but there has been an increase in clubman route scores. Not too long ago the clubman route was won on single figures but now its generally higher than that and I think we perhaps need to look at easing the clubman route a bit. Hopefully this may encourage those easier route riders to venture onto the clubman route. The easy route is the hardest to plot and again its perhaps a bit too much for the raw beginner, one problem is us trying to get all routes to pass through the same begins and ends cards. At the next trial we should have some more new markers which we will use to provide different ends cards for the easy route which we hope will help in easing the severity a bit.
The recent trial at RHQ turned out harder between sections especially on the run-up to Section 10 which cut-up quite badly and was someting we didn't consider at the time.
Generally speaking there will always be the odd section in a trial that a rider does not like for whatever reason and that will always be the case. And as we all know you can't please everyone. But we want to try to please as many as possible and I would like to hear your views on how we can improve, we are aware of queueing problems and last weekend tried to shorten the sections a little whilst still giving riders something to have a go at, in hindsight Section 1 was too long and the fact that the run-up to Section 10 got badly cut-up caused some queueing but considering the size of the entry it was a lot better than it has been previously. So do we leave the hard route as it is or ease it ?
Do we ease the clubman route a little?
Do we ease the beginners route?
Or leave things as they are?
One comment was to ease the queueing we should put twelve sections out, great idea but extra work for the two or three regular plotters and despite last weeks entry we were short of observers on two sections until the Miles clan, who are regular observers anyway, looked after section 9.
Despite the huge entry one section (10) was observed by riders and the others by those who we see week in week out observing so to put twelve sectrions in would be pointless.
The club would like more helpers to set the trials out too and assist on the day, collecting markers etc.
Another problem last week was Bill Brown being sat in his van for hours partly due to the big entry and partly due to people being late, maybe we need to look at a second person to help Bill with the entries too.
Lets hear your views, thanks.

[eiger]

Sorry got it wrong, Section 10 was observed it was 8 that wasnt until the Miles family took it on and 9 which the riders had to sort out.

[Man17]

Some good questions / issues raised Eiger.

I rode the middle route of the trial (the first "proper" ride out I'd had since Boxing Day) and to me the severity seemed to be on a par with the RHQ trials I did when i was riding regularly 18 months+ ago.

A good mixture of tricky sections, none of which I would deem as "dangerous".

As you say getting the severity of sections right, particularly for the "easy" route is very difficult, from experience I know a lot of time & effort is spent getting the easier route right as you don't want bikes and bodies everywhere, and of course, weather/ground conditions impact on this dramatically.

One thing I have noticed from the Man17 Dead Easy trials is there is a core of riders who ONLY ride "easy" events, and this number seems to be rising, whether these are newcomers/older riders returning to the sport or whether events are generally becoming harder I couldn't say for sure?

Possibly just the fact that there are more riders out there participating and not everyone is a "Pete Hallam" who can drag a rusty old Yam, and even rustier pair of Wulfsports out and give the rest a run for their money on the 50/50 route!! ;D

My PERSONAL view, and I'm sure you'd get 120 slightly different views if all riders responded, is that an entry of 120 riders must mean you're getting something right?

In terms of late-comers, again a difficult one, getting 120 riders signed on does take time, but it is also annoying when some turn up at 11.00am and still expect to be signed on.

Maybe clubs need to bite the bullet and be stricter and turn them away, then of course you have the problem where people have travelled a good distance to ride the trial etc etc.

Maybe adding a extra £5.00 to their entry fee (to go to charity) may discourage them to turn up late?? Nothing better than hitting a trials rider in the pocket to make them get up in time!!

[eiger]

Thanks for taking the time to reply Man 17, good to see you and your trusty sidekick, the failed Russian ballerina Damianeedroptitova!
Charging extra for latecomers would be a good idea but then who would enforce it, its a no win situation so it will have to be endured until something crops up as the cure!
Two secretary's on the day taking entries might ease things a little, a strict 'if you are late it'll cost another fiver' threat might help too. A well advertised promise of a tenner per observer could support that help that is often lacking.
Some extra help with setting out and on the day tasks would be most welcome, any offers would result in a free bacon and egg butty (courtesy of Bill!!)
As for your comments re the riders who only turn up for the Man 17 'dead easy' events we spoke about that last week, you don't see them at other trials and our concern is that they perceive the Macc dead easy route as being too hard.
I think in general we are looking at easing the beginners route and the clubman route.
As for the harder route it should be perhaps left as it is but with a view to building more natural sections without the markers where you have to almost disappear up your own backside to make the turn!
Fair comments though except for the rusty Wulfsports!!
Other views most welcome

[ricks]

Sorry guys, got headed off on the wrong track for a minute there!

When you said "Nothing better than hitting a trials rider in the pocket" I thought you meant a quick whack in the Wulfsports ... Don't let the enduro lads pick up on that idea ;D

Seriously though, an excellent thread with good comments from people who know what it is to be in there at the coalface, grafting and succeeding in putting on good events - and then working out how to make them better. For you!

As was said before, if you're getting 120 riders, something's right so it's finding the balance between "if it ain't broke don't fix it" and keeping things moving on and interesting, not just putting the same sticks in the same holes every time. That's something that new blood and new ideas helps with. Volunteers are rarely refused! <Bee-in-bonnet mode on> You can learn a lot from observing - often as much as from actually riding, sometimes even more. <Bee-in-bonnet mode off>

It's also a matter of everyone having the chance to find their own level. Some are happy to just do the Easy Route, whereas others want to move on up.

Can someone give some perspective on what has been happening with general entry levels over the last few years? Are trials on the up again? What level is doing best? Why?

Not too sure about charging extra for those who turn up late, though - difficult to enforce when there's a queue waiting to sign on. Anyway, unless there's a darned good reason for it, it's just bad manners and disrespectful to the organisers. Once-off is OK if there's been an accident or other delay on the way. Do it regularly and you need a new alarm clock - or a kick in the Wulfsports!

[levelpar]

Hi lads

I rode the easy route and young 'un rode the middle route.

I feel that you have a very successful formula. The variety of sections, a good ride round, a broad spread of abilities (us no hopers can watch and envy the good lads), decent parking, a bit of banter and a chuck wagon.

Plenty of events have maybe 2 or 3 of the above but not many tick all the boxes.

For me the easy route was spot on. I cleaned every section (once) but still lost over 40 marks !!! I''ll never be good enough to ride the middle route, I couldn't of cleaned any of their sections. So I wouldn't want the easy route made any easier, in the hope that I might go up a route.

It's not for me to comment on the other routes.

I would like to help with the setting out, I work Saturdays but if you go up during the week prior to the trial I can usualy skive off to plant some flags.

Keep up the good work.

[GC]

Just wanted to add my two penn’orth (for what it's worth!) ...... from the amount of entries received and the distance riders are prepared to travel from, that alone must say something about Macc Trials having the correct formula. Macc caters for all abilities and the sections are varied from trial to trial.

It’s not really for me to say, but I don't think making changes to any route is needed.....each rider loves a bit of challenge, knows his capabilities and will ride accordingly. I appreciate marks dropped by those riding the middle route are higher than was the case in the past but I don’t think making the route easier would be welcomed. As an observer I get to hear a lot of positive feedback from riders in all classes who have enjoyed a good day out - no matter how well they've done (or not... as the case may be!) Negative comments ....I have yet to hear!

Queueing? Because of the high number of entries, I think that is par for the course and riders will just have to accept that. Besides, it’s a chance for them to catch their breath and socialise a bit!

It would be great if more volunteers were forthcoming, a cross section from each route, then their input on section plotting would be taken on board. But as I said earlier, Macc seem to have got it right!

Volunteers for collecting route markers would be very much appreciated – I always end up collecting them from my section, as do some others.

Don’t agree with the suggestion for a Tenner per observer (yes….I know I’m shooting myself in the foot here!!) but isn’t it enough that a rider gets a FREE RIDE if an observer is provided? Perhaps that should be better advertised?

As for the amount of entries - I am prepared to help take some of the load off Bill (think Bill knows who's talking here!) Regarding late arrivals? That is a hard one to answer!

It might be good idea to give out a short questionnaire to all riders at the next trial in April (not the Dead Easy trial in March) to be handed in at the end of the day. I appreciate riders want to get going as soon as possible after their ride …. but ticking a few boxes wouldn’t delay them for too long. That way we will get a general idea in black and white, not just through hearsay, on how riders feel in general.

cheers

[eiger]

;D Thanks for the replies so far, yes any help would be welcome and weekdays are probably better for setting out than weekends so give me a call (or call, email Bill) on 07810-803931, be good to get a few different views too.
As for a tenner per observer I think we should either offer a free ride for an observer or a tenner if a free ride is of no use, Rochdale club offer a tenner a ride and rarely struggle for observers, keep those views coming though and thanks to those who have posted so far.

[Dabbi Lumpkin]

Hey up Eiger, i enjoyed the last one at RHQ, just a bit dissapointed that you was not in full retro wulfsport atire !!.
As me and Karlos said to the problem in getting a DE in RHQ may not be the actual sections but getting to them as depending on the weather etc it can be a bit tricky for raw beginers (and me !).
I think that the easy route is the hardest to put in, so many different abilities ride this route and pleasing everybody would be hard, personaly on the Man17 DE we try and put 7 really easy sections in and 3 trickier ones, just to try and grab a few marks.
As junior is a pure beginner, some of the Macc easier ones would have been to hard for her but we will do the white route at RHQ, if the look a bit hard then I will just ask for a 5 for her, the ride round and a few sections will be enough for her at this stage.

Sorry is just about the easy route, you could argue that easing the middle route to let riders who are dropping low scores on the easy route have a ride on the middle route and then the good middle route rides move to the 50/50 but that opens another can of worms

Anyway just my opinion, from a guy with no natural trials talent !

[sutty]

;D as usuall bill all your trials are spot on you must have it right or you wouldnt get the entrys you get all routes are good and the 50/50 idea is good for the old bugg!rs like me who like a challange but cant do all the flicks and hoppin if people think what there doin is to hard they can ride out of class in a lower level till they feel it right a trial should be won around 40-50 marks lost i think .how will riders coming up ever get any better if they dont push themselfs see you at the next trial

[eiger]

Thanks for the comments folks, I think the general view from the club is that we slightly ease the easy and middle route sections. Mind you now I've said that no doubt the scores at the next Macc trial will be three figures on every route!!
Anyway food for thought and thanks for taking time to reply.
Other comments have been: stop allowing Mike Roberts and Mark Reynolds to glue their feet to the pegs, make Craig Robinson ride a Yam TY175 with one hand tied behind his back and 100psi in the back tyre. Send Andy Hipwell back to the 'Help for those Father Jacks' clinic.
Teach Ian Dommet how to find neutral, Bill 'I'll grass Pete Hallam up to the observer' Brown that if he gets away with a clean when it was a five its ok really!!
Ben Miles and Will Emmott - wrong bike gents - Yam TY's are the future.
And Ballerina's Andy Hallam, Iain Robinson, Liam Robinson, Carlostadabortwo and Damianeedroptitova that tight Hebo's aint for real men!!
As for Phil Turner well he lectures at the 'help for Father Jacks clinics' using Jeff Robinson as an example of what can happen to you if you aint careful!!

[sagsag]

Come on Eiger, drag yourself into the 21st Century!! TY Yams are so 1990's
Yeah, good to see so many constructive points being made on he future of out trials. Thanks lads!
I rode an Earl Shilton trial last weekend and they have introduced a "Green Route", as well as the normal routes. Basically, riders ride the middle route and where there is a rock step or tight turn that is not suitable, they deviate through 1 pair of green flags and then straight back into the yellow route. This seems to work well, as more riders are pushing themselves a bit more to ride a slightly harder course than the white route. Would this work at Macc Trials??
Maybe we should have a "I ride a Yam and wear Wulfsport clothing" route!?!?!?!?! At least Eiger would win it everytime!!!

Cheers

[levelpar]

Probably daft, but how about a 50/50 route for the easy/middle route.

The 5 hardest easy sections and the 5 easiest middle route sections. (You know what I mean)

No need for any more flags than are already used and 5 of the easy route sections could be made really easy to suit the raw beginner.

Just a thought. All the 50/50 routes I've ever seen, seem to cater for the middle and hard route riders. This could be a way helping the better riders from the white route, bridge the gap to the middle route.

Never seen it done before, so could Macc lead the way?

P.S Not trying to create more work, honest.

[The Real PSYCHO]

Some very good comments have been raised on this topic apart from the wrong bike choice for Ben Miles and Will Emmott of course...... they simply couldnt handle the power of a yam ty!!!

The last comment by levelpar i think is a brilliant idea and i think the middle/hard route 50/50 has been a great success so i dont no why it wouldnt be for the easy/middle route 50/50.

However the amount of entries for pretty much every trial held at RHQ, I dont think the club is going far wrong on setting routes out, apart from letting pete hallam ride the 50/50 route and not the hard route!!!

[eiger]

Folks, thanks for the comments, even sagsag and the real psycho made a valid contribution with the exception of comments about TY'S and Wulfsport!!
A 50/50 route for beginners to middle route is something we have considered previously and we'll discuss it again but we dismissed it last time as its another task for the small numbers who set out, another headache for the secretary and makes the results even more complicated. And we'll need some different coloured markers too, but its a fair comment, I'll have a word with Bill.
Cheers folks.