New TSR22a stop rule - Fisher @ Hawks Nest 11 Jan

[kenr]

Ow do all?

What a turn out. Over 100 for a Centre road trial. Good gripy rock sections. Even I had the odd clean before damaging my wrist on that bloody drop into the river on John Critchlow’s section. Still it was another good un.

This is not about that though - I want feedback from as many as possible about the modified ‘TSR22a’ stop allowed rule. Please use this thread to support or criticise the recently changed rule. I will then ask the ACU trials committee to reply.

I was at a National Clerk of the Course seminar at ACU's HQ in Rugby yesterday. Most of the trials committee were there and it’s obvious that they are all very dedicated to improving trials. They work very hard and for free too. I'm sure they will be interested to see your feedback, good, bad, constructive or winging. Let’s have it.

Is going to make our sport better? Worse? Why?

My view: You can see straight away that the modified rule makes it simpler and easier for observers which has got to be a good thing. I can see that we are inviting a return to much more technical sections again and time limits to avoid riders taking 1/2 and hour to ride a section. Queues are bad enough now!
Come on..... don't just sit back and say nowt, give us your feedback, please.


KenR ....... AKA Mr P

[Timp]

Good trial Ken. Apart from that section that got your wrist. Hope you didn't damage it badly.
I don't think the new rules are going to do trials any good overall. I can see that its easier to observe but that is the only positive. Good sections are spoilt because each hazard in the section could be attempted on its own. Being able to hit each bank, root or rock straight on means sections are going to have to get harder to take marks.
Most comments I heard on the day were against the new rules, including Dan Thorpe who won the trial!
We are now back to rules we had in the late 1990s which failed then. We then moved on to 'stop for a 1' which worked well till the new rules were brought in for the world trials championship and now were moving to follow them!!
The trials which will show that these new rules are poor will be the nationals. Most are tight on time as it is without all the riders taking a lot of extra time in the sections. You can't blame the riders for doing the best in the section which for most will include a lot of stopping and hopping.
Please don't run Man 17 trials on this rule. I would rather have 'stop for a 1' but this rule is gone so it would have to be non-stop.

[mikeyroberts]

THE WAY FORWARD IS GOOD FOR ALL SPORTS ONLY IF IT IS FORWARD!!!! WHY IS IT BETTER FOR THE SPORT TO HAVE THE SKILL TO BALANCE GREAT FOR A PERIOD OF TIME ONLY TO MESS IT UP AT THE PART WHICH WOULD BE INTERESTING AND THE SECTION SHOULD HAVE A TYPE OF FLOW

[sandmseccy]

Staffs Moorlands MCC's monthly meeting took place last night & the new rule was discussed. I haven't personally been to a"new rules" trial yet but most of us have. Concensus was that we'd adopt the rule on a test basis, with a view to ditching it if it turned out to be a backward step!!!!!!!!! Bit of a non-committal approach, I know, but this is what you get in a democracy.
We collectively echo "Timp's" comments - both Fisher routes won on clean - this surely isn't healthy and will inevitably lead to tighter sections and longer queues. It may well also widen the gap between the "hoppers & boppers" & the "non-hoppers & boppers". The only time I hop or bop is as I'm descending (un)graciously to the ground in an unplanned dismount!
Whilst I've referred to the SMMCC intentions above, the opinions expressed are mine and do not necessarily reflect those of the rest of the club.

[john]

Surely the purpose of a trial is to get from point A to point B following a smooth and appropriate line within the markers as determined by each individual rider, encountering each hazard as is, in a continuous forward motion, without having to “faff” about making each obstacle a “sub-section” within the section itself?? Let’s face it, club trials are for enjoyment and a good day out - none of these guys intend going international - most have to go to work on Monday!!
As has been said already, each rider would take longer to complete a section (and who could blame them?) hoping for a “clean” (and probably get one!), sections would need to be harder to take marks, queues would get bigger and observers would get frustrated – it’s hard enough to find willing observers as it is! Personally, I would be inclined to tell a rider faffing about to “get a b****y move on, we haven’t got all day!”
And if time limits were implemented (God forbid!) can you see observers standing there with a stop-watch being responsible for both time-keeping and marking? I can’t!!!

Gail

[mont]

This rule change is a backward step. It was changed afew years ago to stop people balancing for minuites on end only to five the section after all, resualting in bigger quews of frustrated riders waiting to ride the section. The sections will have to becme harder to take marks.

[kenr]

All good well argued points, please let’s have more.

Anyone for the new rule??

Its important that the pros as well as the cons get aired.

At the moment it looks like stopping is not progress after all......... or is it???

Come on let’s hear you.

Still limp wristed Mr P

[levelpar]

Sorry, slow off the mark, if you'll excuse the pun !!

I have now observed at 5 trials this year, all under the new rule, stop permitted.

So far so good, however all the points mentioned above do make me wonder whether it is step in the right direction.

At each of the trials I have been to, waisting time in the section has not been an issue. Queues have been no worse and all but one of the trials has had 75 + riders.

On the clubman/middle route the new rules have made no difference to the marks lost. On the hard/expert route the riders have benefited from the change and rides which before wiould have lost marks are now being unpenalised.

Having said that, probably 75% of the riders in these trials have been on the easier routes and the hard sections have been marked in such a way that the best riders have done them with barely a pause never mind a stop.

I do feel the old rule rewarded the rider with the talent do the section non stop. However it was probably the inconsistancy of observing that caused the problems, not the riders or the sections. Observer A would have you down for a mark if so much as thought about stopping. Observer B would count to 3 under his breath and then penalise the rider. Observer C had no idea what was going on and allowed you to stop for 30 seconds and still gave you a clean !!!

Not ideal.

Where I can see problems is at trials where the majority can stop and hop, I wouldn't like to be at the back of that queue.

So old rules and observers who all interpret them in the same way.

I won't hold my breath !!!!

[kenr]

Please add your vote to the pole to give me an overview on the new stop allowed rule.

On that subject; thanks for the feedback, all of which has clearly be thought about and well considered. I'm still waiting for feedback in support of it as well as further feeback, one word feedback is much better than no feedback at all ...... lets hear it please..................

Still limp wristed but getting better Mr P

[jc250f]

I believe it is good to have the option to stop! I have ridden a couple of club trials this year and the sections have not been set out differently to last year. Plus there is no need in most sections to stop and hop. I have not had to ride any differently to the previous 'no stop' years. Riders who have taken the time to learn how to stop & hop the bike should be allowed to use that to their advantage! Makes good competition! Keeps the sport evolving!

However, from an observers point of view, maybe more complicated to mark, but as long as they are consistant with their observing that should'nt make a huge difference.

[levelpar]

Out again this weekend at a fabulous venue in Yorkshire.

130 riders, 2 routes, 20 sections and 2 laps.

On my section the new rule made no difference to the easier route. A twisting section in a stream with an exit up and over a big rock. No benefit in stopping, the only ones who stopped were the ones who fell off !!!!

On the harder route (35 riders) I would say it was impossible to clean the section without a couple of back wheel hops and a front end bounce across, these were needed to line up an awkward rock in the stream. Inevitably while the rider was doing these he had lost forward movement.

This didn't delay things, but with the old rules there may have been a disagreement as to whether any marks had been lost whilst stationary.

I did speak to quite a few of the experts and the feeling was that the sections were maybe a tad tighter. Whether this was intentional I don't know but as this trial has previously been NO STOP you can make up your own minds.

So inconclusive. The hard route riders who couldn't hop were disadvantaged on my section.

As an observer I had an easy day just counting dabs, not stops and dabs. All I have to do now is try and remember the riders number !!!! Give me bibs every time.

[kenr]

Feedback is looking a bit better now with at least a couple of supporters to the revised rule. Still only a few votes, 4 and mine = 5 which is disappointing.

jc250f might consider this: is it better and more skilful to
0) ride a section in one continuous movement or
0) a series of movements separated by various preparation and lining up
manoeuvres / techniques
Both can result in the same score ‘a clean’ so are not separated in the new rule where they would have been under the stop for 1 rule.

My view is to support a system that clearly rewards the higher skill and ability.

At present that view is that it takes more skill, ability and effort to ride a section in one continuous movement without stopping than it does riding parts of the section and stopping (feet up) to either get lined up ready for the next part or to recover from difficulty.

I find levelpar ‘s thoughts right on the pace. Its not that clear which is best or if it matters but take his description of the hard route in his Yorkshire section, surely an Expert riding that none stop clean would deserve a better score than one who stopped to get lined up for that awkward rock.

Keep the comments coming...... please?

Looking forward to the annual M17 dinner tomorrow.

Still not right wristed and Mr P

[welshdab]

I think the new rules are fantastic for riders and observers.

Hopping into position effectively and keeping your feet up is a skill which is learned over many years of practice. Some talk about this almost as if it is cheating! I hate it being referred to as "hopping & bopping"!!! Riders who are able to hop their bikes are usually pretty good riders and dont rely on this on its own to win trials! It wont take longer for riders to get through the sections... we're not talking about the kind of manouvering found in a world round here. I dont think sections will need to change much, if at all.

The observers job is made a lot easier which has got to be a good thing.

[terry]

Hello Kenr
I'm with Mike on this. It should be forwards, one section not broken up.
Why did we change the first time to 1 for a stop ?
Are we looking at this the wrong way round ?
Is this change for observers or riders ?
Are we letting the observers down by not giving them training ? Particularly for Nationals.
Should we be doing seminars for observers so they all mark the same ?
Should we ask the ACU to produce a video to demo the marking system. (a web one to)
I wonder what we will do next year ?
T

[paul]

the non stop rule has been in force in scotland for years and this week sees the 6days trials non stop trials ask any scotish rider about english trials and they will consider them to be more like an arena trial with all the stopping and balancing you dont need much harder sections just longer laps an average trial is about 3 to 5 miles per lap whereas yours are much shorter lucky to be 1mile i think non stop is better and much easier to observe at many trials recently i have seen riders balancing half way up an obstacle with no chance of clearing it and holding up everyone else this is very frustrating and time wasting